tonight, a cnn special. >> they don't get to hold the entire country hostage over ideological demands. >> washington, d.c., turning on the closed sign with no give on either side. >> my goodness, they won't even sit down and have a discussion about this. >> the house gop's latest game

gambit, funding the government one piece at a time. >> how could a democrat vote against that? >> just as long as one of those pieces isn't obama care. that strategy like those before it going down in flames tonight in the senate. >> even that proposal shows the utter lack of seriousness that we're seeing from the republicans. >> also tonight -- shut down be damned. you try telling the greatest generation they can't visit their own war memorial. >> somebody move the barricade, these were important visitors. >> this is shutdown showdown. >> good evening, everybody. i'm jake tapper. welcome to this special half hour of cnn "shutdown showdown." we're nearly a full 24 hours into this partial government shutdown. all sides have agreed to work out their differences and get things moving again. just kidding. if anything, the rhetoric is even more intractable now that this has actually happened. our poll shows most americans think the lawmakers on both sides of this are acting like a

spoiled children which as a father i might say is an insult to spoiled children everywhere. they've gone home after failing to pass targeted piecemeal bills including national parks and claims processing at the department of veterans affairs. the fear now among democrats seems to be the republicans will try to fund the government piece boy piece except for obama care which is of course what this is really all about. the shutdown did not stop the health insurance exchanges under obama care from opening as scheduled today. aside from a few 404 not found messages, well, several of those actually, people have been trying to sign up throughout the day. we've got lots to discuss and the american people want to know when this is going to end. i'd like to thank california congressman mccarthy for staying up with us and cnn chief congressional correspondent dana bash and gloria borger.

>> congressman when is this going to end? >> this is a battle that's been going on for quite some time. i listened to what you said, that today the votes failed. they didn't fail because of republicans. they failed because of democrats. >> the piecemeal bills. >> i don't consider funding the veterans administration, the g.i. bills as a piece meal. i believe if there are el else and places of the government we agree on, why punish them? why when they had the world war ii, why was the parks department ordered to shut it down? that greatest generation deserves to be saluted, not to meet barricades. the president is trying to punish the american public instead of solving this problem. and he'll negotiate with iran, putin, but he won't sit down and talk. and think of this. if you want to question who shut this government down, republicans never wanted to shut the government down. and they funded the government time and time again. this was the last thing we asked for. that individuals in america get treated the same as big business. >> delaying the individual mandate in obama care. >> and making sure congress and

senate and the presidential live under the same laws when it comes to health care. and harry reid said no. and so we said then why don't we do what our rules say? if we have a difference of opinion on those few items why don't we go to conference? he said no and made a decision to shut the government down over this, which we think is wrong. >> what do you think is more difficult, negotiating with putin or the iranian president or as republican whip negotiating with your own caucus? >> look. i know that makes good tv. but tell me why do you have 230 republicans all voting the same way? i mean, you've got a -- >> it might be because of the whip. >> it's not going anywhere in the senate so it's an easy rote for them, right? very easy vote. >> listen. if you think from a prospect -- most people don't watch -- the president has signed seven bill that is have reformed obama care. it's eight different provisions. republicans and democrats have voted for both. there are 70 democrats that sit in the house today that voted to reform obama care one way or

another. and the thing that i believe, when you go out to the american people they see the frustration. and one thing we have to realize, 90% of every job created in america in the last year was part-time. part-time because of obama care. that means part-time dreams. part-time pay. >> sitting out there, why not okay you want to reform obama care, you want to change it. there are things wrong with it. it just opened today. there are all kinds of glitches. why not do that, then? and not do it the way you're doing it on a resolution to keep the government running that may go up against the debt ceiling? why not just say, okay. we want to remove the tax on medical devices. let's actually have a piece of legislation that does that? what would be so wrong with that? >> it wouldn't. because we've actually passed that. but wait. let's deal with facts. we have passed that piece of legislation and harry reid wouldn't bring it up. then when we passed no budget no pay they were forced to bring it up. and what happened? 79 senators voted for it. but harry reid wants to keep tax on pacemakers.

i think that's wrong. and when you ask why don't we go about it that way, that's exactly what we asked for. go to conference if you have your differences. >> but before this. before this whole fight. before this whole fight. >> i guess the point she's trying to make is, if you're interested in truly reforming obama care, then there are other ways to do it. and this doesn't seem like a good faith effort to reform obama care. first you wanted to defund it. then you wanted to starve it in different ways. as opposed to trying to improve it. >> we've tried many different ways. but let's think of what obama care has done, okay? you're thinking that republicans are just doing this. the president has made the case for us. ten times this year he's delayed one portion of obama care. even last week while he was criticizing us for wanting to delay it he was delaying it for small business. >> the one month on the web site. >> exactly. so he has acknowledged it has

problems. then the core of the problem is, it's fundamentally changing america. that now we're becoming a part-time america with part-time dreams. because 90% of every job created is part-time. >> but just sort of going back to the beginning of this, it's not a secret that john boehner and i'm guessing you admit it on live television, that nobody wanted to go down this road of tying defunding obama care at all. shut down the government. he doesn't want to do it. we know he was fighting it. you guys drafted a bill that didn't include that behind the scenes. my question for you is, you're somebody who recruited the class of 2010, ones who are demanding that this be the strategy. tell us why. i mean, what about these -- we know that everybody says that they're tea party backers or whatever. why is it so hard for you all who created this majority to control them? >> i question even the idea that

you're thinking you control them. why does the majority of americans oppose to obama care? why are the numbers continuing to drop? >> and you all are really united on that. the impression is is that the strategy now on tying it to the defunding the government which you didn't want to do. >> people have the same goals, different strategies. you have a continuing resolution and you have a debt ceiling. now, in a c.r., if government shuts down -- >> continuing resolution. >> 94% of obama care goes forward because that's the discretionary money. and obama care is mandatory. where do you deal with mandatory? within a budget. the biggest difficulty we have here is a president that won't engage. while we stayed over the weekend to vote to keep the government open he went golfing. i mean, that is a challenge and a problem that we've got. >> can i ask you? did you plan it this way? >> did i plan that harry reid would say no? >> is this a strategy that you guys planned? or are we just making it up here watching you guys make it up as you go along? because that's honestly what it looks like to me. >> well, that's a fair question.

but did we think that harry reid would shut the government down because he didn't want congress and senate to live under the same laws and he wanted to get a subsidy? >> to shut the government down. >> let's be fair with the facts. who passed the bill that funded government and who just tabled it? that is a fundamental difference of where we go. and a president who says i won't even negotiate. you've got 61% of america that believes the president should negotiate. you've got a $17 trillion debt. that is larger than our entire economy. you look overwhelming the american public wants something to change about that. >> talking about polls. and i appreciate what saying. but vast majority of the american people doesn't think that a shutdown should be tied to the fight against obama care. they think the government should be allowed to continue funding things. they disagree with the tactic. >> okay. and that's fair. but that's exactly what we're doing. that's why we went to the floor today to make sure the veterans administration could process their claims, g.i. bills, home loans. >> isn't the strategy with this

to piecemeal it until -- i'll take away the word piecemeal. to fund different parts until the only thing left is obama care and then you just don't do that and move on to the next business? that's the fear the democrats have. >> why wouldn't rational people say, why inflict any pain on the american public if we agree with 95% of everything, then let's do that. then the parts we disagree on, why don't we go sit in a room, have a conference the way the founders have created this? that's what we've asked for. it's only the senate that's not showing up to do it. that's the challenge of where we are. and so if they will not do it, i'm shocked by the number -- we had three bills up. a v.a., we had the national parks, and we had d.c. there are 15 democrats that voted to fund d.c. but voted against funding the v.a. the veterans. >> we're going to take a quick break. we're going to continue with that. everyone here is sticking around. coming up next, he was once shund by his own party. is his memory of exile one of the driving forces between

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welcome back to "shutdown showdown." house speaker john boehner brought three funding bills to the house floor and watched as each one went down in flames. it's the latest battle for the house speaker who seems a little wary when it comes to taking on members of his own party. in the past he paid a hefty price as being seen doing as just that. let's bring in our guest, republican congressman kevin mccarthy and cnn political correspondent dana bash and gloria borger. >> you make it sound like republicans took down the bill. the bills were put on suspension so it takes a two-thirds it was only the democrats that took it

on. nancy pill pelosi and steny hoyer. >> fact checking. >> i appreciate the fact checking. the tables are turned. we should also add he will probably bring them up again tomorrow under normal rules. >> and they'll pass. >> under normal rules. >> so the veterans of our country, those who are going out for disabilities, those that need a g.i., those looking for home loans will be able to make sure they get them. >> also i believe the majority leader eric cantor said he would bring one up for the nih, national institutes of health there was that story in the "wall street journal" today about people needing clinical trials and turned away because the funding wasn't there. >> how many do you envision? >> i envision we fund 94% of the government that we agree on. get into a room and have a discussion the way we're supposed to do it. >> let's pretend like that's happening in reality, not fantasy land. let's say john boehner gets in a room with president obama.

>> yes. >> they work something out. >> yes. >> if he comes back to your caucus and says here's what i worked out with president obama, he's gone. >> no. >> i mean, come on. >> you guys. >> something, right? there needs to be something. it can't be a clean bill. >> that's what happened with. [ inaudible ] >> when you watch back in history, what happened about a month ago? steny hoyer first said he'd vote for a clean c.r. then he shifted and said he would not. they have been building up for a shoutdown. harry reid i won't negotiate for anything. >> you played in their hands. >> because we kept passing bills that funded the government? >> not with attaching defunding obama care. you knew that wouldn't make it through the senate. >> so we attach to end the tax on pacemakers which 79 senators voted for and harry reid. >> i take your point. let me ask you a question. so a smart republican i know says that one of the reasons that -- >> you don't think we all are? >> you're all smart, of course.

but one in particular they know. i asked, how come boehner did in march he said we're not going to atacht spending bill to the defunding obama care we'll keep fighting to defund obama care but not going to attach it because that would lead to a government shutdown. obviously that changed, the position changed to the house majority leadership. so what's going on here? this analyst says that what's going on is that the members of the tea party caucus in particular are very, very helan about obama care and don't understand the shutdown will ultimately be bad for house republicans. and they need to be shown like a parent would that if you touch the pot on top of the stove it will burn you. and they're not there yet but they will see that ultimately. and what might be going on is house republicans are waiting for these people who are pushing for this within your caucus to start hearing from constituents back home, hey, i'm not getting this. hey this isn't working. hey this is shut down. ultimately there will be some sort of realization we need to

come it an agreement. >> we will come to an agreement at the end of the day. but this is a much bigger issue. this is an issue for the direction where this country is going to go. are we going to continue to accumulate the debt we're accumulating or fundamentally change our economy for an economy that's growth. we have laid out a strategy that didn't build into the c.r., that built into where you dealt with the funding issue into the debt ceiling. but you can always argue why we're here. but that's too late. so let's understand which way to go forward. >> can i just say, if you talk to republicans, not in the house, and some republicans in the house but also republicans in the senate, other republicans your former presidential candidate mitt romney, they're saying this is the wrong strategy for the republican party. your popularity now is an all-time low at 17%. they believe that this isn't working for you. and that it's just the wrong thing to do. and you were making the wrong fight. >> which they agreed with --

>> which you agreed with originally but now you're making it a fight. >> thank you, ted cruz. >> so it seems to me there's a lot of people in the republican party looking at house republicans and scratching their heads and saying, well, why are you doing it this way? >> maybe that's around the commentating table. but if you go out into america you'll see a great deal of frustration. you can go to jimmy kimmel and they'll tell you the problems they have. you could go on the internet today and find out you couldn't sign up for it because everything was breaking down. >> aren't you stepping on your own message? you could have been talking about mostly that. instead you're talking about shutting down the government and not the problems with obama care. >> i want to be clear, though. we voted to fund the government each and every time. i never thought that harry reid would deny 79 members of his own senate that voted for it before to stop the tax on pacemakers. >> we have to call it there. thank you so much. >> thanks for having me. >> it's late. not that late for your

constituents back in california. house majority whip kevin mccarthy of california, thanks so much for being with us. dana bash and gloria borger, please stick with us a little longer. when we come back i'll ask you to weigh in on the question how long is the shutdown going to last. stay with us. i was made to work. make my mark with pride. create moments of value. build character through quality. and earn the right to be called a classic. the lands' end no iron dress shirt. starting at 49 dollars.

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when will this end and how

long does d.c. have before people stop being polite? the over under is on the government shutdown when our special coverage continues next. across america people are taking charge of their type 2 diabetes with non-insulin victoza®. for a while, i took a pill to lower my blood sugar, but it didn't get me to my goal. so i asked my doctor about victoza®. he said victoza® is different than pills. victoza® is proven to lower blood sugar and a1c. it's taken once-a-day, any time, and comes in a pen. and the needle is thin. victoza® is not for weight loss, but it may help you lose some weight. victoza® is an injectable prescription medicine that may improve blood sugar in adults with type 2 diabetes when used with diet and exercise. it is not recommended as the first medication

to treat diabetes and should not be used in people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. victoza® has not been studied with mealtime insulin. victoza® is not insulin. do not take victoza® if you have a personal or family history of medullary thyroid cancer, multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if you are allergic to victoza® or any of its ingredients. symptoms of a serious allergic reaction may include: swelling of face, lips, tongue, or throat, fainting or dizziness, very rapid heartbeat, problems breathing or swallowing, severe rash or itching. tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. serious side effects may happen in people who take victoza®, including inflammation of the pancreas (pancreatitis), which may be fatal. stop taking victoza® and call your doctor right away if you have signs of pancreatitis, such as severe pain that will not go away in your abdomen or from your abdomen to your back, with or without vomiting. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you have any medical conditions.

taking victoza® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. the most common side effects are nausea, diarrhea, and headache. some side effects can lead to dehydration, which may cause kidney problems. if your pill isn't giving you the control you need ask your doctor about non-insulin victoza®. it's covered by most health plans. welcome back to our chngs special report "shutdown showdown." the government closed up shop about 24 hours ago. that means many government workers are going to bed tonight worried about their paychecks. let's bring back dana bash and gloria borger. your predictions how long is this going to last? >> you go first, dana. >> okay. passing the baton. i think it's possible just a week, but i think it's more probable that this leads right into the debt ceiling negotiations, which that's not until october 17th. so could be awhile. >> october 17th, i think at a

certain point the senate is going to say you know what if we're having one negotiation we just ought to do both at the same time. >> that's only two weeks from today. >> so that's why they'll probably -- >> but of course only for people -- >> i don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing. i don't know if they'd be more likely to actually get something real done or less likely. >> there are no negotiations, like none. not on a principle level, not on a staff level. zipponada. >> i'll have the latest on the government shutdown tomorrow at 4:00 on "the lead" crossfire starts now.

tonight on "crossfire" obama care goes online as the federal government shuts down and simple bipartisanship on life support. who gets the most blame? >> this republican shutdown did not have to happen. >> we need the senate democrats to come join us. >> on the left, van jones. on the right, s.e. cupp. in the crossfire. democratic senator debbie stabinau, an obama care supporter and republican senator tom coburn who opposes it. obama care and the shutdown blame game tonight on "crossfire." welcome to "crossfire." i'm van jones on the left. s.e. cupp on the right. day one of the government shutdown. and the world has not ended. tonight house republicans are offering a handful of bills aimed at funding portions of the government including military veterans. and once again president obama and congressional democrats are refusing to deal. only time will tell who will suffer adverse political

consequences here, but republicans who vowed to do everything they could to stop or slow obama care have been true to their word. and since when is keeping an promise grandstanding? as speaker john boehner said, it's just an issue of fairness. >> the bill we passed on the house last night would have funded the government through december the 15th. and provide fairness to the american people under obama care. no exemptions, no exceptions. let's treat everyone the same. >> no good? >> well, funny you should mention the word fairness. fair would be letting everybody in congress vote in the house of representatives vote their conscious on this bill, something called majority rule would be fair. unfortunately we've not had that and that's why we have the shutdown in the crossfire tonight we have people to help us think this through. democratic senator debbie stabinou who supports obama

care. also senator tom coburn, a doctor in real life is against obama care. we'll start with you. now you have been one of the voices of sanity, from my point of view in this whole process, saying we should not shut down the government. there's smarter, better ways to deal with obama care. we are now in this ditch. the car is upside down. the wheels are spinning. how are we going to get out of this now from your point of view? >> i think anytime you have a conflict like this what you have to have first is communication, a vision on how you get there, you have to create a way for everybody to save face so they can walk away partly injured but still walk away. and you have to have some common sense. and this will play out. i was here in '95 and '96. i had a four-year hiatus where i went back to my practice. but it's the same type of thing. it is. leadership, van. leadership doesn't allow this to happen, whether it's republican leadership, presidential leadership, or the democratic

senate leadership. we have allowed this to happen through failed leadership, not recognizing, not seeing the signs of polarization and trying to interrupt them. and we haven't seen that. and republicans are as guilty as democrats. and i put a little bit on the president. he knew this was coming. is it advantageous politically? maybe. but the thing would be, i would think, if you see this coming try to stop it. to go and have the talks. and none of those talks have happened yet. they haven't happened between john boehner and harry reid and they haven't happened between the president and john boehner and harry reid. >> as we go forward i would love to get some of your wisdom. you were here before. it seemed like you were wise enough coming out of the last situation to know to try to avoid this. i'll let s.e. >> senator stabinau, same question. what is your answer for the road forward? we can't live in this ditch the rest of the year and our lives. >> no question. let's say what we're really talking about. we're talking about whether or not we will agree on funding the government for six weeks. government services from food

safety to helping veterans to the cia, fbi, what is on the floor right now is whether or not to continue funding for six weeks while we do what tom's talking about which is a larger effort to sit down. i agree that we need common sense. what we have right now is a situation, though, where we came together and said you know it's only six weeks of funding. so we're going to compromise and agree with the funding level that the republicans want. not a dollar more than what they're asking for. for six weeks. so we can get to the bigger question of the budget, the deficit and so on. but that unfortunately wasn't good enough. instead, what we have are a minority of the minority of the minority in the house which has said no, we want to add to that the repeal of affordable health insurance for up to 30 million people. now it's interesting. last fall people voted at the ballot box that they wanted the president that would give them affordable health insurance,

more democrats in the senate today. today they voted in front of their computer with their mouse by having five times more people go to healthcare.gov to try to get the affordable insurance than any day of medicare.gov. >> they also voted for a republican house, let me remind you. but senator coburn, i want to press you on what you've described as kind of a political risk in shutting down the government. i'm not really sure why the shutdown is such a gamble for republicans. are you really convinced that in november of 2014 voters are going to remember that one time they weren't allowed to visit the national park, or are they going to be thinking about and reeling from the effects of obama care that's been implemented for a year now and is that going to be the thing that drives them to the polls like it did in 2010 to vote for republicans who oppose obama care? >> well, maybe. but the thing is as you have a

microphone of a president that is hundreds of thousands of times more powerful than all the republicans if they were speaking in unity. >> but do you really think that obama in november of 2014 is going to be saying, vote for democrats because the republicans shut down the government a year ago? >> no, i don't. but i think at the same time is we're all here to govern and to make the best decisions not for the short term political career but for the long term of the country. and that's why i'm critical of my side and the other side and the president. why would this degenerate to this level? and the only reason it has is because people have not displayed the leadership characteristics of a free country. >> i also would have to say, tom, that it's gotten to this point because unfortunately, and i appreciate the position you have taken on this, and frankly the majority of republicans in the senate. but we do have a group of folks in the house that ran in 2010

saying elect me. i'll shut the government down. yea yea yea from the tea party. and in fact, they are happy today because they finally did it. >> senator, they were elected to oppose obama care. that's what they're doing. >> actually, debbie, that's not right. it's not the minority of minority. >> what people are going to talk about in 2014, in michigan that is a family of four earning $50,000 a year in michigan is going to be able to get a basic comprehensive health care insurance plan for $80 a month including maternity care, including emergency care, including lower prescription drug costs, including mental health care. so that's what they're talking about. >> what's the deductible on that, debbie? it's going to be about 4500 bucks. so if they ever get sick, what they're going to have is a promise of insurance but not real insurance. >> here's what we have right now, tom. [ overlapping speakers ] >> let me make the point that now you said a minority of a minority. last night every one of the votes were over 218 votes. that's not a minority.

you take a position with your vote. so your claim that this is a minority. the fact is the vast majority of americans think this is a pretty risky experiment, what's called the affordable care act. i call it the affordable care act to emphasize that it's not going to be affordable. it's actually going to cost you, if you look at it, all the comparisons made in the press so far, the price of the policy versus what they thought it was going to be, not what you could have gotten before obama care. so the real out of pocket costs are going to be far greater for the average american under the affordable care act if you don't count subsidy and if you count subsidy. >> okay well first of all let's look at the fact that oklahoma which is in one of the low-cost policies opening up today, that family of four at $50,000, $63 a month are going to be able to get basic care as opposed to what they would get without this new reform of about $630 a month. and what we have to look at --

>> but there's no difference -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> a lot of folks were getting something several hundred dollars a month that basically left them in the situation where if they got sick the insurance company could kick them off their insurance and did. or maybe they have a $5,000 cap so if they really get sick they still go bankrupt, they still lose the house, because there's no coverage. the difference now is we're talking about comprehensive basic coverage. 8 million women starting in january will have the chance for the first time to buy basic maternity care, healthy babies, healthy moms. this is a good thing. >> look we're talking about the policy and the substance. we're going to continue to do that. i want to take one step back to the politics of this. you said something just a moment ago, though, kind of shocking to me. you pointed out that before you had maybe passed a budget a bunch of good stuff in it and then this continuing resolution comes across your desk that is lower than that. and you surrendered without a

fight to go with the republican continuing resolution that devastates all these programs that you love. ted cruz is fighting for what he believes in. and i think he's actually makinghood he makinghemaking headway. isn't it bad politics for you to give away programs you care about and get no concessions from republicans on it and now be stuck with both supporting a bad budget and trying to fund obama care? >> first of all let me say we originally were talking about a six-week continuing resolution while we worked out the larger effort to eliminate the sequester which is costing about 750,000 middle class jobs this year. so that we could restore cancer research. >> i like that. you were fighting for that. >> but we were willing in the effort of compromise. >> why? >> because we didn't want to see the government shut down. do you realize as of today -- we didn't give up our principles. this is called governing in the united states of america where believe it or not you don't

always get everything that you want at the moment that you want it. so we were willing to say, we will give you six weeks of continued funding at a level that we believe does not support education innovation, growth in the economy, in order to get a broader agreement that will move us forward. and instead, what we're hearing is that's not enough unless you potentially eliminate health insurance for 30 million people. >> you're telling us now you didn't compromise. you compromised and got no credit. >> that happens all the time. we're the ones trying to govern because we actually really do care in the democracy in the united states of america about governing. >> so her statement would say we don't care. that isn't true. the fact is the sequester's never going to go away. what it's going to do is slowly increase the discretionary spending. if you actually study all these things, which i have for nine years, what you know is in our discretionary budget today a

quarter of a billion dollars of it is duplication, waste or fraud. okay? that's not my numbers. that's gao. >> we're going to come back and talk about those numbers and more. but when we get back, republicans have been pretty giddy today about the fact there have been some glitches on the web site. you have a start up and the web sites glitches the everybody excited. that's bad. i think it makes my point. i'm going to ask you, senator coburn, if obama care is so unpopular why are so many people trying to sign up they're crashing the system? when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals:

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welcome back to "crossfire." today is the first day you can go online and signed up for health care through the obama care exchanges. many people tried, so many people tried they crashed the system. now, we're here with democratic senator debbie stabinau and republican senator tom coburn. now i want to go to you. why is it the case if this is such a terrible program that so many people are signing up for it, interested in it that they're actually crashing the system? >> it may not be that it's the number. it may be the system. the system may suck [ laughter ] >> a couple of points i'd make. number one is, health care is a problem in our country. the difference is as we had no republican agree that this was the best way to fix it. as a matter of fact, didn't get one republican vote in the house or the senate. so there was a way to do this where you didn't have this

polarization in our country on health care. i couwould posit to you the two things in our country we're not doing well on are health care and education. both of those are majority controlled by the federal government. there's not anything the federal government does that doesn't cause things to cost more. you just name one that doesn't. so why would we go in a direction that exacerbates the problems of the system we have now? there are some good things in the affordable care act. i won't deny that. as a doctor, i thought i fought insurance companies my whole life so there are some great things in it i'm glad are there. but it's going to cost us trillions of dollars with decreased actual health care. >> i want to talk to you about the things you like. >> let me just jump in and say when we talk about republican support, remember this is based on massachusetts and what has been called romney care which in fact everybody now loves. rates have gone down.

more employers are now covering people than before. so what we're looking at is something that's actually based on private sector competition, and it's also saying, you know what? if you have insurance you ought to get what you're paying for. you can't get dropped. there's no pre-existing conditions. so on. >> senator, let me ask you about the mechanics of this. the whole thing to me seems to hinge on the idea that you will coerce millions of young people, young healthy people, who really didn't want to buy health insurance before obama care to suddenly buy it and in some cases buy it at a more expensive cost than before obama care. i'll just talk to you about detroit, michigan. 27-year-old single person will see a 150% increase in premiums thanks to obama care. if you build it and no one comes, doesn't this whole thing collapse? >> well, yes, except they're coming because we saw crashing on the computers because everybody is coming. >> but the right people have to come, right? >> let me talk to you about a 27-year-old who earns $25,000 a

year in michigan who will be able to find for the first time comprehensive basic care starting at $80 a month. what we are seeing now across the country is six out of ten people that haven't had insurance before are going to be able to find it for under $100 a month, including -- and i have to keep stregs again -- things like maternity care, preventative care, mental health, prescription drugs, doctor visits, et cetera, et cetera. here's the other reality of that young person or anyone without insurance. they walk into the emergency room, they get care. we all pay for it at the highest rates possible. so everybody who has insurance is paying at least $1,000 more a year. so where's the personal responsibility? >> let me ask you a question. >> the reality to that is, why would you pay $100 a month or $80 a month when you can pay a $95 fine if you get sick or get

pregnant you get care? so the point is -- >> higher fines. >> if you're going to have an individual mandate. >> highest possible cost. we don't want that. >> you have to make an economic incentive to put them into the group. this bill does not do that. >> we could make the fines higher. i want to talk with you about this individual mandate, which has been demonized by a lot of people. my view of it is, it's a very conservative principle that as you call it the individual responsibility mandate. that nobody should be walking around in the united states without health care that could get it without insurance that could get it as the senator just said expecting if they dive bomb themselves into the emergency room we're going to pick up the tab. to me, the individual mandate is, it's conservative. it also is honest. because i know a lot of republicans say they want to keep this idea from obama care that nobody can be denied coverage. well, hold on a second. you can't get something for nothing.

if sick people are going to take money out of the system, well people have to put money in the system. >> i don't disagree with you. >> what's wrong with the conservative principle in obama care? >> here's difference. if you want to have an individual mandate get everybody kicked bullied to have the same thing. so what you do, if you really believe what you just said, give everybody a refundable tax credit and let everybody be on the same basis and let markets actually decide. the reason health care costs 50% more than it should in this country is because there's not a real market. you're not going to get a real market with this. there won't be any transparency. if you give everybody a refundable tax credit in this country including the irresponsible biker who breaks his pelvis and we're all paying for it or the state you're auto enrolled if you don't enroll yourself in a high deductible plan so we actually really spread the risk. we're going to have the government run and decide what you will get by the different plans. we've decided what you've you'll get rather than you deciding. here's the thing that's going to happen. here's what people are going to

see. you're never going to seat same doctor year in year out under this plan. you're never going to have the same care. it is not going to happen. >> time out. time out. first of all, in michigan right now there are 43 different plans. all we're talking about is allowing small businesses and individuals to go into an insurance pool so they can get the same kind of rate, have the same kind of clout as gm. >> to small business it isn't even available right now. >> it is coming online. folks can go online now. in another month they'll be able to sign up. there is no evidence, zero zero zero, that folks are not going to be able to see the doctor that they want to see. none. ask the folks in massachusetts about that. >> let me give you the evidence. >> not true. not true. >> in new hampshire, 12 of the main hospitals aren't even in the group. so if you live in new hampshire, here's 12 hospitals you used to be able to go to. you can't go to any of them now. >> all i can tell you is that across the country -- >> there's no proof.

you said there was no proof. that is proof. >> is have no idea what's happening in new hampshire right now. >> you have no idea. that's why we're making claims that aren't accurate. >> in new hampshire maybe we need to figure out what to do in new hampshire. all i can tell you in michigan that is not true. >> let me give you a better example and you tell me what's wrong with this. in arkansas, which is a good red state, they've looked at this. they got very creative. they decided to create not a public option but private option. they're being creative with their medicare dollars. >> medicaid dollars. >> medicaid dollars. being creative and creating little marketplaces where people have choice. >> how did that happen? >> it happened because you had republicans and democrats come together and get creative. >> no. you had this administration grant them an exemption for that program but not grant oklahoma one for theirs. why? because they have a democratic governor. oklahoma has a republican governor. so when we ask for something very creative, we were told no.

>> we're republican governor. we weren't told no on things. >> did you have a reform medicaid plan? you're just expanding medicaid. >> actually not true. let me also just say, all of this, all of this as we look forward, we have to remember where we have come from here. millions of people that couldn't find any kind of insurance or paid a lot of of money, got almost nothing when they got sick. got kicked off. i mean, what we're talking about is how do we make this better? i'm not even suggesting that this is perfect and that we don't need to work on it. >> i know it's not perfect. i can assure you. >> i tell you it's a whole lot better than what tens of millions of americans have and women who have been discriminated against on their rates who haven't been able to get preventative care, who haven't been able to get maternity care. >> the government can buy your health care for you better. >> this is not about government. yes, it is. >> no, it's not. you're going to go onto a web site -- >> it's going to cost $1 trillion over the next ten

years. >> you're going to pick out your own insurance company. >> you're not going. to you have to. that's an offense. >> you have to have both these guys back. because we have about 20 more questions we need to get to. but i got one last one i want to ask. now listen. the constitution says you guys have to keep your salaries. americans are mad about that. you've got congress people in the senate, you've got a young veteran in the house saying she's going to give her salary back. people are going to give their salaries to charity. my last question to you guys. who are you giving your salaries away to? i'm sure you won't keep them. >> you're good people. >> your poor staffers are suffering. >> my staffers are working. >> but without pay. >> no, no. my staffers are working with pay. right now they're doing oversight on the federal government. they're continuing to work on the waste, fraud. >> 800,000 federal workers are off without pay. >> nobody's for that. >> are you going to keep your salary? >> i'm going to keep my salary and make sure i spend it and tithe it and give it to

charities and all the things i've always done. i'm not going to stop working. >> 80% of my staff is on furlough. i'm going to be contributing mine on a daily basis for every day we are not seeing a government that's opening i'm contributing to charity. >> thank you to senator stabinau and coburn. next we ceasefire and see if there's anything van and i can agree on. my customers can shop around-- see who does good work and compare costs. it doesn't usually work that way with health care. but with unitedhealthcare, i get information on quality rated doctors, treatment options and estimates for how much i'll pay. that helps me, and my guys, make better decisions. i don't like guesses with my business, and definitely not with our health. innovations that work for you. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare.

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tonight on "crossfire" we've been debating obama care and the government shutdown. now let's call a ceasefire. is there anything we can agree on? republicans today made an offer on a piece meal approach that would fund certain sectors of the government. it was an offer that the white house immediately rejected. and nancy pelosi called pathetic. now, i think, van, you and i would agree that we have got to get certain sectors of the economy back online. veterans services, for example. >> i think the one thing we can agree on is the veterans should not suffer in this situation. but i agree that i don't like ted cruz now and speaker of the house and a senator and god king of america sitting here saying this agency is going to open, this one is not going to open. but he's right about the veterans we should make sure the veterans don't suffer. >> hopefully we can all come together and make it happen go. to our facebook page and twitter and weigh in on our fire back

question. should members of congress be paid during the government shutdown? right now 3% of you say yes, 97% say no. that solves that. >> well, the debate continues online at cnn.com/crossfire as well as on facebook and twitter. from the left i'm van this is "piers morgan live." welcome to our viewers in the united states and around the world. also welcome to my studio audience. tonight shutdown showdown. on this first full day of the government shutdown i'll talk to jay carney, plus two congressmen right in the middle of things. i've also got a power panel of experts. bill crystal, grover norquist, carol ruff ready to answer your questions about the shutdown, obama care and what it could all cost you. join the conversation.